Hot Spots
Wisconsin Programs
Here and Now
In Wisconsin
Director's Cut
Outdoor Wisconsin
Teen Connection
30-Minute Music Hour
WPT Sports
Wisconsin Gardener
Wisconsin History
Interest Areas
Creating Health
Events & Activities
News & Public Affairs
Parents & Educators
PortalWisconsin.org
Wisconsin Vote
Support WPT
Inside Scoop
Wisconsin Public Television is a
service of the Wisconsin Educational Communications Board and University of Wisconsin-Extension which provide equal opportunities in employment and programming including Title IX requirements.
© 2008 All rights reserved.
privacy policy
public inspection files
terms of use
accessibility
This week, we will finish up our three-week series to meet the Supreme Court primary election candidates. Annette Ziegler will join us to talk about her campaign. Ziegler’s court experience includes both judicial experience and lawyer experience. Ziegler has been a judge of General Jurisdiction Court since 1997, a presiding judge in Washington County for six years, a part of the District II Court of Appeals Judge Exchange, and a Deputy Chief Judge District III, among other positions. As a lawyer, Ziegler has served as Assistant U.S. Attorney, Pro Bono Special Assistant District Attorney, and an attorney in private practice.
This week Gov. Doyle has proposed a ban on smoking in public places throughout the state of Wisconsin. This ban would include bars and restaurants. Some bar and restaurant owners are upset about this proposal. Rob Swearingen is one of them. Swearingen is the northern zone vice-president for the Tavern League of Wisconsin, a non-profit trade association that works to protect bar and tavern owners. He also owns Al-Gen Dinner Club in Rhinelander, and fears the ban may have a negative affect on his business. Others, such as Smoke Free Wisconsin’s Executive Director Maureen Busalacchi, have been working toward a ban like this. Smoke Free Wisconsin works to protect people from the dangers of second hand smoking. Some of the organization’s top priorities are to increase the number of smoke free environments, increase the price of tobacco, and prevent young people from beginning to smoke. Both Swearingen and Busalacchi will join us to talk about their positions on this ban.
Here and Now’s very own Peter Leidy will appear in studio this week to perform another political commentary song. Leidy’s work on “Here and Now” won him the award of Wisconsin’s “Best Commentary” of 2006 by Wisconsin Broadcaster’s Association earlier this week.
Frederica Freyberg:
Welcome to "Here and Now, " I'm Frederica Freyberg. Governor Doyle's proposed statewide smoking ban has some people fired up and others burned. We’ll hear from both sides tonight. The Wisconsin Broadcasters Association honored our singing commentator Peter Leidy Wednesday. That's when they awarded him with the state's Best Commentary of 2006. Later, Peter gets 2007 off to a start with a brand new musical parody.
But first, barely a month to go before the spring primary race for the state Supreme Court. Two weeks ago, we introduced you to candidate Joseph Sommers. Last Friday night candidate Linda Clifford was here. Tonight, we conclude our series of one-on-one interviews with the candidates. Joining us from Milwaukee is candidate and Washington County Circuit Court Judge Annette Ziegler. Judge, thanks very much for joining us.
Annette Ziegler:
Thank you. My pleasure.
Freyberg:
Well, I wanted to talk with you a little bit about the mailing that was sent out by your campaign about Linda Clifford. We asked her last week, one of your opponents, of course, to respond to that mailing that called her a liberal activist, and called the current state Supreme Court an activist arm of liberal special interest groups like trial lawyers, a pseudo legislature. Now, Linda Clifford said that in attacking the Supreme Court and the legal profession in that way, that you cannot serve impartially as a high court justice. What is your reaction to that?
Ziegler:
Well, the reaction is that is a letter from Margaret Farrow. And she, like all of us, is entitled to our opinions. It was ethically and legally done. That's the way it has to be done when a person is soliciting funds on your behalf in a campaign. And while she voiced those opinions and has strong opinions, I've been clear on my message. My message in this campaign is that people should focus on who is the more qualified individual in this race.
Freyberg:
So you are disavowing that letter as your own opinion?
Ziegler:
It does not state my opinion. That is not the intent of the letter. The intent of the letter is for Margaret Farrow to reach out to people that she wants to enlist as supporters in this campaign. And I think she did that in her words and her form in her letter.
Freyberg:
It comes from Judge Annette Ziegler, Wisconsin Supreme Court. It's got that heading on it. And it is paid for by your campaign.
Ziegler:
That's how that has to be done, as I understand it.
Freyberg:
Do you think that this in any way makes you, you know, that you can't serve impartially on the high court?
Ziegler:
Absolutely not. And the reason why is I serve right now as a judge. I am known as a fair and impartial judge. I preside fairly and impartially over cases. That's what I have done for the last ten years. And that's what I would continue to do to serve the people of this great state.
Freyberg:
Now, Linda Clifford also says that words like liberal activist, and legislating from the bench, are conservative buzz words. She calls them slurs from people on the losing side of court decisions. What do you think of words like liberal activist or legislating from the bench?
Ziegler:
Well, again, those are words that were chosen in the Margaret Farrow letter by Margaret Farrow. And she's entitled to those opinions, just like Ms. Clifford is entitled to her opinions. But the crux of the matter here is who's most qualified for this seat, not what one letter in a campaign says. It’s not one letter, or one blogger, or one issue will not make this race.
Freyberg:
Now, how would you describe yourself? If she can be described by others who support you as a liberal activist, could you be so considered a conservative activist?
Ziegler:
I didn't hear you. Conservative activist?
Freyberg:
Activist.
Ziegler:
Okay. No. And the reason why I say that is my feeling with respect to the law is that the judiciary is a separate and equal branch of government, very important branch of government. And our framers set that forth in the Constitution. A judge's role is to apply the letter of the law, legal precedence and the Constitution.
Freyberg:
How do you feel about how the current Supreme Court has conducted its business? Do you also feel it has turned into a pseudo legislature in some of its recent rulings?
Ziegler:
I feel that our Supreme Court justices work very hard to reach the conclusions that they do. And I have the utmost regard for each and every one of them. I would not have run against one of the sitting Supreme Court justices. That was not my goal. When Justice Wilcox decided to retire, I then decided I would run. But it was not before that.
Freyberg:
How would you describe yourself politically?
Ziegler:
You mean in a republican/democrat sense?
Freyberg:
Yes.
Ziegler:
Well, I believe that that's my own business as to how I vote. I believe I vote for the best candidate.
Freyberg:
How do you think voters should view it, the person running your campaign, ran Mark Green's campaign. You were appointed by a republican governor. And you are the apparent pick of the Wisconsin Manufacturers and Commerce.
Ziegler:
I was appointed by Governor Tommy Thompson in 1997, and I ran again in 1998 and 2004 in a nonpartisan race. I have been nonpartisan and I continue to act that way. That's my role as a judge.
Freyberg:
This is expected to be a very expensive race. I understand it could cost upwards of a million dollars to wage this campaign. How does someone take in that kind of money to be elected to the high court and then not kind of be expected to return the favor from the bench? How does one do that?
Ziegler:
Well, I think -- let me start with this. I think it's unfortunate that races are so incredibly expensive. And I wish there was a better way. Television and other media, if you are going to purchase that, that ends up really driving the expense of any given race. We are going to personally be highly invested in this race. And, again, I think it's unfortunate that races are that expensive.
Freyberg:
What about the question of how do you solicit and accept that kind of money for a candidacy, and then end up on the high court making decisions, perhaps involving people who gave you that money?
Ziegler:
Okay. Well, first off, judges are ethically precluded from soliciting funds. So, I'm very careful not to solicit funds from individuals, or entities, or anything else. A judge simply stated cannot solicit funds. Second, we fill out statements of economic interest. I've been doing that for the last ten years. Anytime a case comes before them, if they feel that they cannot be fair and impartial, then that's a point where they need to recuse themselves.
Freyberg:
What is your opinion of restrictions on judicial candidates from expressing their views on issues?
Ziegler:
You know, I think, frankly, that first off that's appropriate, because that's what the judicial canons of ethics call for. And that's what I've been following for the last ten years as a judge. I also think that when people voice a particular viewpoint, sometimes a voter might think, well, that's how they would rule in a particular case. And that's just not the case, because whether you have particular viewpoints as a judge or not, that's set aside in favor of what the law actually says. So, it's a judge's role to apply the law, whether they agree with it or not, whether they have a personal opinion one way or the other. The law is what drives the decision.
Freyberg:
How are voters to kind of decide who to vote for in a race like this if it seems to us that it's kind of like trying to vote for a school board candidate without knowing their position on whether they want class sizes to increase?
Ziegler:
I'm glad you asked that question. And I think in the end, voters need to base their vote on who's the most qualified person. Who has set the stage to be able to sit in the state's highest court? It is an incredibly important seat. It's a ten-year term. And it is important that someone have a broad base of experience. I believe experience in the private sector has served me well. Experience as a prosecutor has served me well. And experience as a judge for the last ten years, serving the state, has served me very well. I serve currently in a court of general jurisdiction, which means we do everything, civil, criminal, family, juvenile, probate, adoptions. We do everything. The kinds of issues that arise to the Supreme Court are issues that start at the trial court level. So what better place to see those issues on the front lines and how they affect real people and real lives?
Freyberg:
Speaking of that and your experience, we wondered whether there was one experience, perhaps, that stood out for you as a lawyer, or a judge, or even a wife and mother, that might help shape you as a Supreme Court justice?
Ziegler:
You know, every day when I see people in court, you know, you pull tools from a variety of areas of your life when you're called upon to reach conclusions. But in the end it's the law that drives the decision. But just when you think you've seen it all, something else happens. And, frankly, that's -- I have a very interesting job. It is never dull. Just the other day, there was a young girl who came in. She was adopted. And after the adoption was concluded, the mother told me how she was so pleased to -- she wrote in her diary the night before that, I think it said, thank you for letting me be adopted tomorrow and thank you for letting me have a girl judge. Could I have ever expected that? No. But it was a really neat experience. There have been other very heart felt experiences, difficult experiences. Some days wearing the robe, it's particularly heavy, but it's an important and awesome responsibility.
Freyberg:
What do you most want voters of the state of Wisconsin to know about you, Judge Ziegler?
Ziegler:
I want them to know that I'm fair and impartial. I want them to know that I have the proper background and experience to be able to sit on our state's highest court. I want them to know that I made a commitment to serve the public. And I would like to serve the public at a higher level through serving on our state's highest court.
Freyberg:
Judge Annette Ziegler, thanks very much for joining us.
Ziegler:
Thank you.
Freyberg:
Don't forget, primary election day is February 20 and you can get background on issues and all the Supreme Court candidates on our website: wisconsinvote.org. In a moment, we enter the fiery debate over Governor Doyle's proposed cigarette tax hike and smoking ban. It's a statewide ban in public places, that would include bars and restaurants. We asked some of you what you thought about that idea. Here's what you said.
Woman:
Well, I think that's fair, like I said, because the other people that are nonsmokers, they don't want to breathe in your cigarette. You know, like I said, it's my choice to smoke. So, if I don't want to affect other people, I have no problem going outside to smoke.
Man:
Generally, I think it's a good idea. I support people having the right to smoke if they want to. But they shouldn't be forcing the rest of us to smoke along with them.
Man:
I don't necessarily agree with that, actually. We've already done the restaurant thing. And I don't know. I think we're going to find a way to smoke if we want to. I think it's just kind of ridiculous actually.
Man:
I have emphysema from my parents' secondhand smoke. Most of my life, I've been exposed to secondhand smoke. I'll probably die from smoke-related causes, never having smoked a cigarette in my life. I would like to see smoking banned in all parts of the universe.
Woman:
I think it's a business owner's prerogative to choose if they want to be smoking or nonsmoking. And then the consumer has a choice also. I don't think it needs to be mandated by the government.
Freyberg:
Currently, there are three municipalities in Wisconsin that have passed an absolute ban of smoking in public places. Appleton, Madison and the Village of Shorewood Hills. In addition to a buck-plus tax hike on a pack of cigarettes, on Tuesday the governor called for a new statewide smoking ban.
Governor Doyle, January 23, 2007:
And it will be a ban on smoking in all public buildings, in all workplaces, in all restaurants and in all taverns.
Freyberg:
We take up the taxing and banning of cigarettes now with two people with real connections with the subject. Rob Swearingen is the owner and operator of the Al-Gen Dinner Club in Rhinelander. Maureen Busalacchi is the executive director of Smoke Free Wisconsin. Thanks to both of you for joining us. I'll start with you, Maureen. What do we know about whether a ban on smoking in public places actually prompts people to quit smoking or never start?
Maureen Busalacchi:
We know that what it does is really reduces the impact that nonsmokers especially have. It also helps smokers who are trying to quit, if they aren't able to quit in the workplace. But the most important thing is that this is really about health. We know from studies that heart attack rates decrease tremendously after such policies are in place.
Freyberg:
You were telling me that in addition to the smoking after, though, it's really this tri-fecta that the governor is trying to put in place. Talk with me about that.
Busalacchi:
Certainly. We're really excited about his whole proposal, because he is doing everything that the CDC recommends in terms of attacking the burden of tobacco on our society. Raising the price of cigarettes and tobacco products, by banning smoking statewide, as well as making sure smokers can get the help they need to quit, and ensure that our kids don't get started by funding the prevention and control program.
Freyberg:
To you, Rob Swearingen, in Rhinelander, given that you run a business, part of which is a tavern, what is your opinion of a statewide smoking ban?
Rob Swearingen:
Well, first of all, I understand there is a health issue here, but my angle is certainly hugely a business issue. Anytime you add regulation to another business, in regards to a smoking ban, especially when it comes to the taverns, would be absolutely devastating. And we would like to see some form of negotiation with the governor, where both sides can come to a compromise that will work out best for everybody. I applaud Governor Doyle for bringing this issue and putting it on the table. He recognizes the fact that we need a solution and we need to form some sort of a statewide policy when it comes to smoking.
Freyberg:
How do your customers in your restaurant, the Dinner Club, feel about smoking on premises?
Swearingen:
Interesting. When we take a customer in, we will ask if they want smoking or nonsmoking in the section. I do allow smoking in one of my dining rooms. My far-back dining room is nonsmoking. More often than not, the customer just really doesn't care. They particularly would like the first available table. Certainly, we do allow smoking in our cocktail lounge. But more and more, you find that the smoker is courteous. Even though we allow smoking in the main dining room, you'll see them more and more excuse themself from the table and go in the bar and smoke their cigarette there, rather than offending someone next to them.
Freyberg:
How do you know it would be devastating on the bar business?
Swearingen:
The effects have been hugely dramatic in the Appleton area and the Madison area. I would hate to think what would happen to these mom and pop taverns that have been in existence for many, many years, if a patron couldn't come in there and light up. That's one of the last freedoms some of these places have. The mom and pop tavern over the last ten years, certainly has seen a decrease in business just with drinking and driving laws and penalties and fines.
Freyberg:
Maureen, what about that? Is it worth the cost?
Busalacchi:
Well, frankly, there isn't evidence to show that. We've got the evidence, as well as anecdotes, that this is actually a positive thing. Appleton has no liquor licenses to give out. Last weekend, their paper published a report that there's a waiting list for liquor licenses in Appleton. Madison's employment is growing faster than the state rate in the hospitality industry. Every scientific peer-reviewed study that's been done on this subject shows that business either stays the same or grows under smoke free ordinances. We don't think that employees should have to pick between health and a paycheck. And you can do both by going completely smoke free.
Freyberg:
What do you say to that, Rob Swearingen, that in fact communities that currently have smoking bans are thriving, including their hospitality business?
Swearingen:
Well, we've heard this rhetoric from Maureen's group in the past. It is not the truth. There needs to be a dose of reality when it comes to the Smoke Free people. I invite you to stop in some of these places that have been directly affected in Madison and Appleton. And the devastation is huge. As far as employees in the workplace, nobody forces these employees to work anywhere. They work there because they want to, and not because they have to. Same with the patron. A patron is smart enough to know whether or not to enter a place that allows cigarette smoke. We've got to give them that credit. They don't need to be babysat by a bunch of nannies from the Smoke Free Wisconsin people to tell them where they should and shouldn't patronize. They can figure that out themselves.
Freyberg:
Rob, what about the idea of putting up a patio or having an area outside where people could smoke? Wouldn't that kind of work for everybody?
Swearingen:
I think it's a great idea if you're in Florida or California. But here in Wisconsin, where when we woke up two days ago, it was ten below zero. To indicate that we should put up an outdoor smoking place in January or February in northern Wisconsin is somewhat obscene. Great idea, but just not functionable or feasible in the winter months.
Freyberg:
Go ahead.
Busalacchi:
Well, what's interesting to me is 80% of people don't smoke. And a huge majority of people don't like to be exposed to secondhand smoke. So, it seems to me that some of the taverns are really blocking themselves off from a better business, because more of the public would frequent, perhaps more often, or stay longer. So those kinds of things don't make a lot of sense to me. And why you wouldn't want to protect your employees from heart attacks and respiratory disease also is sort of confusing. The studies again show of bartenders in Appleton and Madison that there was an immediate increase in their health by getting rid of secondhand smoke.
Freyberg:
Rob, what about the idea that maybe a smoke free tavern would be a boost to business?
Swearingen:
Well, the concept is there. And certainly, if somebody wants to go smoke free, that should be absolutely their right. God bless them. But please don't insist, by legislation, that you have to go smoke free. I mean, it's called free enterprise. We should be allowed to run our business the way we see fit, not because of some statewide smoking ban. Now, I will give you that we have to level the playing field. If there's going to be some sort of smoking policy, we have to level the playing field. I would like to see some sort of legislation where we can come to -- build a case with the governor, the legislature and with the public, exempting taverns and other smoking areas -- excuse me, other drinking areas that allow smoking.
Freyberg:
Well, doesn't a statewide ban, though, level the playing field for everyone, as opposed to any kind of ordinances that pop up in municipalities or cities? Doesn't that already level the field?
Swearingen:
Right. It certainly would level the field. That's the other side of this coin. There's two arguments here, or two discussions, at least to my point. The first one being, stay out of my business, let me run it the way I want to run it. The second one being if there was going to be a smoking ban, at least it would be level across the state. It would be devastating to taverns and places that allow drinking in their cocktail lounge. I hope the governor is open to those negotiations where we can put forth a policy that we can all agree on.
Freyberg:
Go ahead, Maureen.
Busalacchi:
There's two things about that that are kind of concerning. First of all, there is no freedom to harm others. And we know secondhand smoke harms others. Secondly, we've heard from tavern owners in both Madison and Appleton that they would like to see a statewide standard. Well, here it is. Climb on board. Let’s get everybody equal.
Freyberg:
All right. We need to leave it there. Rob Swearingen, thanks very much for your time and attention to this. Maureen Busalacchi, you as well.
Both:
Thank you.
Freyberg:
In addition to the proposed smoking ban, the governor's proposed dollar-plus spike in the cigarette tax has people talking. Here's what you said.
Man:
I'm fine with it. I haven't smoked for a long time and have quit for much, much longer. I'm all for it.
Woman:
I think the tax is already high enough, to be honest, as a smoker. But there's not much I can really do about it.
Man:
I support it, because it's killing American people, raising American healthcare costs. And it's just really negative.
Woman:
Well, I'm a smoker, so I don't think it's good, but I would like to quit. So, I mean, I think it would help me quit if I did that -- if he did that.
Peter Leidy:
Back home we said bye bye, Mark Green
Ban gay marriage and ban Dave Zien
And it looks like we'll see J.B. as A.G.
But Kathleen's not ready to concede
Freyberg:
Peter Leidy singing "Post-election Blues" on "Here and Now" last November. That song earned Peter an award this week, the Wisconsin Broadcasters Association honored Pete with the First Place prize for the tune. He won Wisconsin’s Best Commentary of 2006. Peter, congratulations. Here is that plaque.
Leidy:
Sure. Let me take a look at that. I have a long list of people I'd like to thank, but I've really got to get singing. This is very nice. Thank you so much.
Freyberg:
Congratulations. And now, for tonight's "End Insight, " here is award-winning singing commentator Peter Leidy with a song he calls “Peter's State of the State address.”
Leidy:
Winter came, we finally have snow
I found my boots and gloves, the temperature's low
Global warming alarmists, what do they know?
Hey, Brett, one more season, man
Presidential hopefuls are cruising the nation
Hillary wants to have a conversation
Tommy's even checking out the situation
Hey, Brett, come on, one more year
Our own Denise Jackson on American Idol
She knocked them out at her first recital
I'm pretty sure Green Bay could win the title
If you come back and play one more year
Supreme court candidates I won't begrudge
Withholding their opinions is the role of the judge
They're all completely neutral, wink, wink, nudge, nudge
We've been waiting 25 days, Brett
Have you heard about the governor's big plan yet
He's taking aim against the cigarette
But we can smoke at the casino, you bet
Hey, Brett?
You know, Farve, there's been a lot of speculating
Are you having some fun keeping me waiting?
Well, frankly, it's getting a little irritating
Why can't you be a decider like the president?
You know, I'm going to hold my breath until you decide
That's right
Freyberg:
Peter, please breathe. Please breathe. We cannot afford to lose you, you award winner. Congratulations again on this beautiful award.
Leidy:
Thanks a lot. I really appreciate this.
Freyberg:
Peter is the winner of the Wisconsin Broadcasters Association Best Commentary of the Year award. He will be back again next month with a new song. We need to take that from you, though, because it goes in the Wisconsin Public Television display case.
Leidy:
Okay. That's fine. Thanks, Frederica.
Freyberg:
You're welcome. Before we close, a couple of program notes for next week. The governor's State of the State address is next Tuesday. Join me and Wisconsin Public Radio’s Shawn Johnson for complete coverage of the speech next Tuesday night at 7:00.
A week from tonight, Governor Doyle will be here on "Here and Now" for a State of the State follow-up interview. I will see you Tuesday night from the state capitol. Until then, I'm Frederica Freyberg. Have a great weekend.
Captions produced by Riverside Captioning Company
National News
Wisconsin News
Wisconsin Public Television
News & Public Affairs
821 University Avenue
Madison, WI 53706
800-422-9707
npa@wpt.org


