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Here and Now Transcript #000416    Airdate: 10/14/2005
[Captioning made possible by U.S. Department of Education]
  Wisconsin Juveniles Face Life in Prison
Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch released a report showing increasing numbers of state juveniles being sentenced to life in prison without parole. Sixteen Wisconsin minors are currently serving lifetime prison sentences. The study also showed that black teens are being incarcerated at significantly higher rates than their white peers. Wendy Paget Henderson of the Wisconsin Council on Children and Families joins anchor Frederica Freyburg to discuss the report and what it means for Wisconsin's juvenile justice system.
related links
Wisconsin Council on Children and Families
Amnesty International Full Report
Amnesty International Press Release
  Georgia-Pacific to Cut Green Bay Jobs
Worldwide tissue manufacturer Georgia-Pacific announced last week it will cut 850 jobs in North America, and approximately half will be from two Green Bay mills. Green Bay is taking the hardest hit because its decades-old equipment needs to be updated. Green Bay mills will eliminate up to 300 positions by January 1, 100 of which have already been cut through voluntary severance packages. David Hollenberg, director of the Paper Technology Center at the University of Wisconsin-Green Bay, will be here to provide analysis of the cutbacks.
related links
Green Bay Press-Gazette Article
Georgia-Pacific Green Bay
Journal Sentinel Online Article
  SeniorCare and Medicare Plan D Counseling Resources
This week U.S. Rep. Tammy Baldwin addressed the confusion that seniors may feel when choosing between Wisconsin's SeniorCare prescription drug program and a myriad of options available under Medicare's new "Plan D." State and local counseling resources are available to help seniors make an informed choice.
related links
SeniorCare Customer Assistance
Wisconsin Benefit Specialists By County
Coalition of Wisconsin Aging Groups Elder Law Center
  Conservation Coalition Heads to Madison
Madison will host the Land Trust Alliance National Land Conservation Conference: Rally 2005 from Oct. 14-17 at the Monona Terrace Convention Center. The conference is designed to rally the nation's leaders in the conservation movement. Speakers include environmental activist Robert F. Kennedy, Jr., Gov. Jim Doyle, and former Secretary of the Interior Bruce Babbitt. Land Trust Alliance President Rand Wentworth will be here to discuss the convention and the conservation movement in Wisconsin.
related links
Land Trust Alliance
Rally 2005
Land Trust Alliance Press Release
  Two Days in October
Wisconsin Public Television will air a new film on the Vietnam War and those opposed to it on Monday. "Two Days in October" is based on Wisconsin native and Pulitzer Prize-winner David Maraniss's book "They Marched Into Sunlight." Moraniss joins us this week to preview the film and discuss two key 1967 events: a deadly Viet Cong ambush that killed more than 60 U.S. soldiers and the Dow Chemical Co. anti-war riots on the University of Wisconsin-Madison campus. "Two Days in October" airs at 8:00 p.m. on Monday, Oct. 17 and will be followed by a special follow-up program anchored by Dave Iverson.
related links
Capital Times Article
David Maraniss
Two Days in October
Looking Back: Two Days in October

Frederica Freyberg:
Welcome to "Here and Now." I'm Frederica Freyberg. Pulitzer Prize winning author and Wisconsinite David Maraniss is here tonight. His book, "They Marched into Sunlight," is the basis of next week's season premiere of the "American Experience" on PBS. Why are 1500 land conservationists in Wisconsin this weekend? We'll tell you that. Job security at Green Bay's Georgia-Pacific is paper-thin. Several hundred layoffs are coming. But first, human rights groups say there is troubling news about the nation's prison population. And that includes Wisconsin. According to a study released this week by Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International, there are 16 inmates in Wisconsin prisons who were sentenced to life without parole for crimes they committed when they were juveniles. In Wisconsin, the youngest a child can be sentenced to life without parole is at age 10. That would be for a crime such as first-degree intentional homicide. Age 17 and up are automatically in adult court for any crime. This week's Amnesty International study shows, while juvenile crime in the U.S. is on the decline, the number of juveniles sentenced as adults to life in prison is on the rise. Wendy Paget Henderson is a juvenile justice specialist with the Wisconsin Council on Children. Thanks for being here.

Wendy Paget Henderson:
Thank you.

Freyberg:
These 16 inmate sentenced as juveniles serving life without parole obviously committed heinous crimes.

Henderson:
Of course they did. A lot of people commit heinous crimes and probably most of these kids committed murder or somebody ended up dying in the commission of a felony.

Freyberg:
Still it's your position and your group's position that juveniles sentenced should not be sentenced to life without parole.

Henderson:
That's right. There are problems in having juveniles in prison for the rest of their life. Children can't understand the consequences of their actions the same way as adults can. So when you have somebody who kills someone as a child, the question is are they as culpable as someone who does the same thing at 40? Our position is no. Our position is backed up by brain research that says that children's brains are not fully developed, which I think most who have kids know that's the case.

Freyberg:
There is a big difference between a 10-year-old and a 16-year-old.

Henderson:
Well, that's true. And yet, scientists tell us that people's brains are not developed at the age of 16. So, while there is a difference, one of the differences is when you talk to a 16-year-old, they will be able to tell you in the abstract that killing is wrong. But when they are in the moment, their impulse control is not to the point of an adult, so they aren't going to be able to resist doing some of these awful things.

Freyberg:
Your position would be that no one under the age of 18, 21, what's the cutoff?

Henderson:
Well, society has made it easy because we have a cute off of 18 for pretty much everything. Except in Wisconsin, a 17-year-old is an adult only for the purpose of criminal prosecution and even a 10-year-old can be tried as an adult. Our position would be that 18-year-old mark should be across board including life without parole.

Freyberg:
Why shouldn't an older teenager-- I can understand people having great difficulty with very young people, but why shouldn't someone who committed first-degree intentional homicide serve life in prison?

Henderson:
There are a lot of reasons. Number one, prison is not well-equipped for young children. A lot of people don't like to think about the kids after they go away and it's difficult to find the children, but the truth of the matter is that kids can be preyed on when they are in prison and children sent as juveniles to adult prisons are eight time as likely to commit suicide as adults and five times as likely as juveniles in juvenile prisons so we're putting them at serious risk.

Freyberg:
We should be clear because 10-year-olds are not going into adult prisons, but your research suggests that there are indeed 16-year-olds in Wisconsin's adult prisons.

Henderson:
That's correct. And so, you know, even I spoke to a child the other day who was 17 years old and sent to a maximum-security prison with a 38-year-old roommate. Even hearing that, you can imagine the sorts of danger that child was in being in a prison cell with somebody who was more than twice his age who was serving a life in prison sentence.

Freyberg:
Wisconsin's numbers are, though you don't like them, they are very low comparatively. Sixteen who were sentenced to life without parole as juveniles compared to some other states where there are hundreds of these cases.

Henderson:
That's quite true. Of course that's something we are pleased about. And yet that's still 16 kids. So that's sort of why we're out talking about this and this is an important thing to talk about. Only 16 kids are serving life without parole, but we don't know how many are serving with the possibility of parole or other lengthy sentences.

Freyberg:
There is a bill before the legislator that would raise the age from 17 to 18 so that is where adult court and sentencing would happen. What is your-- presumably you're behind that.

Henderson:
Yes. That's what the law was up until 1995 when the law was changed. We feel like that would be a first step towards coming back and taking a look at what we know about adolescents in terms of their psychological development and brain development and getting in step with the rest of the country. Thirty-five other states have 18 as their age of adult jurisdiction. And so that would put us in line with a lot of the rest of the country. That would be a first step.

Freyberg:
Is that across the board, 18, so there would be none of this even for first-degree intentional homicide, there wouldn't be any lower minimum age?

Henderson:
No. Now, that would require a different legislative change because some of the kids are waived into adult court. This is a multi-step process. The first step is get 17-year-olds back in the juvenile system, then it would be to look at our transfer and waiver laws and see what kids should appropriately be in the adult court system, possibly looking at kids from a more developmental perspective instead of age.

Freyberg:
Wendy, thanks very much.

Henderson:
Thank you.
Freyberg:
In a moment we talk about the paper industry in Green Bay in the wake of announced layoffs at Georgia-Pacific. First, an update on a story we covered a couple weeks back on the so-called Conscience Clause Bill. The bill passed the legislature and would have allowed health care providers to withhold treatment based on their personal beliefs. Today Governor Doyle vetoed that bill.

Freyberg:
Paper mills rank right up there with breweries when you think about Wisconsin industry. These are times of transition in the paper industry. Last week Georgia-Pacific announced layoffs, several hundred layoffs, at their Green Bay plant. We check in on the implications of the Georgia-Pacific story now with the director of the Paper Technology Transfer Center at U.W. Green Bay. Welcome to David Hollenberg. Thanks for being here.

David Hollenberg:
Thank you for having me.

Freyberg:
Did these layoffs come as a surprise to industry experts like yourself?

Hollenberg:
Well, I think it's a bit of a surprise the way it was announced, but the industry in general has been experiencing tremendous competitive pressures, and the layoffs, I think, are something that probably was anticipated by quite a few people.

Freyberg:
Where are these competitive pressures coming from?

Hollenberg:
Well, it's not only from other companies in the United States but it's also coming from overseas.

Freyberg:
I know that the big C, China, is mentioned as always.

Hollenberg:
And that is an industry concern, as far as paper is concerned. It¿s less of a concern, as far as tissue, at the moment.

Freyberg:
Talk with me about the changing paper industry marketplace that results in this kind of, quote, correction.

Hollenberg:
Well, China has invested very heavily in building new paper machines. And of course, when you build a new paper machine, you want to build it as a world class machine that is bigger, faster and wider than current machines. So, with their cost structure, both labor cost and material cost, it allows them to make product at a lower cost.

Freyberg:
So plants like those held by Georgia-Pacific cannot keep up or are trying to or what's the situation with Georgia-Pacific and other Green Bay plants? 7

Hollenberg:
Well, I think what you're seeing as far as Georgia-Pacific is concerned, yes, they are eliminating some jobs, but they announced they will put some money in to upgrade the facilities and improve the assets. Part of the difficulty with the paper industry is that many companies don't have the money to put back into their operations to keep their machines current or competitive.

Freyberg:
Are there moneys to be had at the public level for that kind of retooling?

Hollenberg:
Currently I'm unaware of significant public moneys that will help.

Freyberg:
My understanding, too, is that the paper industry in Green Bay is kind of moving away from the commercial production and more toward the consumer production. Is that accurate?

Hollenberg:
Well, the Georgia-Pacific mill that announced the reductions is a mill that makes what is called commercial tissue. That's the tissue use that goes into public bathrooms, institutions and such. And there's a lower profit margin typically with the commercial tissue compared to consumer tissue. Consumer tissue is that tissue that you go into the grocery store and buy off the shelf.

Freyberg:
So more of the industry would like to move in that direction?

Hollenberg:
That's a higher profit margin market, yes.

Freyberg:
In terms of the Georgia-Pacific layoffs, what will these job losses mean to the regional and statewide economy? Is it a big hit?

Hollenberg:
It's a hit, but with the announcement of Proctor and Gamble putting in a new tissue machine and upgrading some of their equipment, that somewhat lessens the blow. Also there are other plans by other segments of the industry to add facilities or increase their work force.

Freyberg:
Should Wisconsin, the state of, be doing something differently to attract and maintain these kinds of jobs?

Hollenberg:
Any programs that would be designed to encourage industry would be very helpful. Wisconsin is still the number one paper making state in the United States. We have greater concentration of paper-making equipment and talent in this area than any place else.

Freyberg:
And may we keep it.

Hollenberg:
Yes.

Freyberg:
David Hollenberg, thanks for your expertise on this matter.

Hollenberg:
Thank you.
Freyberg:
Well, lots of healthcare news this week. Governor Doyle announced an agreement to preserve Senior Care, the state's prescription drug plan for seniors, until 2007. The federal government was expected to shut down Senior Care with the arrival of the new Medicare program known as Plan D. Plan D will remain an option for Wisconsin seniors, and this week U.S. Representative Tammy Baldwin addressed the confusion that seniors may face when choosing between Senior Care and Plan D.

Tammy Baldwin:
For a lot of people Medicare Part D may prove to be a bitter pill. So my message today is simple and pragmatic. Buyer beware. In order to choose the best program, you need to get organized, get informed, and get help.

Freyberg:
So where to get help? Here are a couple of places and 800 numbers to call for more information.

Graphic:
Medicare Plan D
Assistance and Counseling
Coalition of Wisconsin Aging Groups
Elder Law Center
1-800-488-2596

Senior Care Customer Service
1-800-657-2038
Freyberg:
The Dales sold the rights so no one may develop the land. They provide one example of working with a land trust to protect private land. Theirs is the kind of story that will be told and studied in a conference in Madison this weekend. The National Land Trust Conference will bring together nearly 1500 people, including the President of the Land Trust Alliance, Rand Wentworth. Thanks for being here.

Rand Wentworth:
It's a pleasure.

Freyberg:
How does Wisconsin compare to other states in terms of lands that are preserved against development?

Wentworth:
State of Wisconsin a national leader. People in Wisconsin love their farmlands, woods, the northern lakes and thanks, I think, to a fast-growing land trust community, there are over 55 land trusts in Wisconsin, and the stewardship fund, Wisconsin is a real leader. There is more to be done. Sprawl is an equal opportunity predator and it's here in Wisconsin as well.

Freyberg:
Now, do land trusts prefer a certain kind of land? I mean, are there certain areas that would be better to preserve this way than others?

Wentworth:
Land trusts have a variety of goals. Some land trusts like to protect farm land. Some see that water quality and trout streams are important and some endangered species habitats. So it depends on the priority of the land trust in the community. We see a wide range of lands being important for preservation.

Freyberg:
So if a person owns a farm, for example, or a big acreage of woods up north and they wanted to preserve it against ever being developed commercially, do they just give it away?

Wentworth:
Many landowners love their land so much, they had it in their family for generations, that they donate the development rights. They continue to live on the land, using a tool called a conservation easement. That means that no one will ever be able to build houses or a shopping center on their land. And they get nice federal tax deductions for that donation.

Freyberg:
So they can live there, are there prohibitions against them building or can you fashion it to your liking for future generations?

Wentworth:
The easements are a flexible tool. A landowner can say it's important for me that I can cut fire wood or it's important for me that my two grandchildren can build cabins. So it's a flexible tool and the amount of the tax deduction will depend on how many rights you retain.

Freyberg:
Are there other moneys to be had in this other than a tax deduction? Can't sometimes people actually sell the development rights?

Wentworth:
Absolutely. Many states including Wisconsin have funds to purchase the development rights or to purchase the land outright and here in Wisconsin the Stewardship Fund provides about $8 million a year for that kind of acquisition. But that's a small amount of money to go a long way, so much of the conservation in America is through outright donation. As a matter of fact, in the past five years, we've seen a tripling of the number of acres protected by private landowners, who just say I don't want my land ever developed and they donate their land.

Freyberg:
And what do the developers think about this?

Wentworth:
Well, some developers think that ought to be a subdivision. But I think the good developers look at that and say you know, every quality community needs green space, needs parks, and my investment in real estate will be worth more if it's next door to a good green space.

Freyberg:
Why do you think this has taken off the way it has?

Wentworth:
I think that Americans like growth, they like progress, they appreciate good jobs, but they also look at the price of that growth and they see a landscape covered with Pizza Huts and convenience stores and say enough is enough. There is a part of all of us that comes alive when we're in a natural place or we're in a farm. And I think there's a longing in America to protect some of the best of our beautiful landscape.

Freyberg:
And again, Wisconsinites apparently feel quite strongly.

Wentworth:
You bet.

Freyberg:
Rand Wentworth, thanks very much.

Wentworth:
Thank you.
reyberg:
The "American Experience," public television's flag ship history documentary series has its season's premiere next Monday night. "Two days in October" tells two stories that took place over the same two days in October 1967: A fierce ambush on an American battalion in Vietnam and an anti-war riot on the campus of the U.W. Madison.

Jane Brotman:
I was very proud to be an American. I felt like this was the greatest country in the history of the world.

Joseph Costello:
I volunteered for the draft. It was an escape for me to avoid attending college.

Michael Troyer:
My granddad fought in the war, my father fought in a war. This is what you were supposed to do if they wanted you. That's what you did even though it was wrong. You had no choice in it.

Mark Greenside:
I'm the first-born Jewish son after the Holocaust. You don't just blindly follow. You don't blindly obey. You stand up when you see something wrong. Your government like any other can make mistakes.

Woman:
Danny and I grew up in Milwaukee. People in our neighborhood didn't go to college. You graduated, you got your diploma from high school and you got a full-time job.

James Rowan:
I lost my student deferment and I remember staying in a barracks and the boy who was on the upper bunk, he looked to be like 17 and a half. I couldn't believe he was draft age. And he cried all night for his mother. And I felt horrible about that. And the only thing I felt I could do was to simply work harder to stop the war.

Clark Welch:
Vietnam was an oppressed people that needs liberating. This is what I trained for all my adult life, it's why I was in the boy scouts, trust worthy, loyal, all of that stuff was, of course I'll go to Vietnam. And for somebody to say that it's wrong to liberate the oppressed, that don't make sense. It was just so simple. So simple. Not so simple now.

Freyberg:
That is just two minutes from the documentary "Two Days in October." It airs Monday night at 8:00 and includes footage of the battlefields of Vietnam as well as from the Dow riot at U.W. Madison. It will be followed with a discussion with some of the people you just saw in the film. The "Two Day" documentary is based on the best-selling book "They Marched into Sunlight" by Madison native David Maraniss. What did you think of the translation of your book into the documentary?

David Maraniss:
I was nervous about how it would be translated and I was overwhelmed by what I saw at the end. I think that Robby Kenner, the producer/director, did a fabulous job with it. He was loyal to the book, but he also added a lot to the book, both some new voices and importantly he captured the emotion that is right there, just right at the surface, almost 40 years after the fact, of both the students, the soldiers, the administrators, the police men. They are all still carrying Vietnam with them very close to the surface.

Freyberg:
Very powerful. What does both the film and your book tell us about why Vietnam continues to matter?

Maraniss:
I think it will matter at least as long as all of the baby boom generation is alive because it was such a defining force in our lives. But beyond that, Vietnam talked about a lot of central themes to war and peace, to what it means to be a patriot, to do your duty, what's the role of dissent in American life, what-- is the government telling you the truth? All of these things keep coming back and back for us.

Freyberg:
Now, one of the people we saw in the clip was Colonel Clark Welch. How anxious was he to talk to you about the tragedy his company experienced?

Maraniss:
It took quite a while to get Clark Welch to talk. He had been so disillusioned by what happened that day when he lost so many of "his boys" as he called them, that he had not talked about it for decades. And essentially went up into the hills of Colorado afraid that some mother or sister or widow would say you're responsible for the death of my son or husband. And really, it wasn't until I started doing the book that he started to deal with it. And trusted me to tell the truth, which showed that he was, in fact, a hero in that battle and tried to persuade the commander from going into the jungle.

Freyberg:
And many of these people experience the same things where they haven't talked about it, and then they do.

Maraniss:
Yes. So many. I mean, many of the soldiers had not talked to anybody for 30 or more years, until this book and then the film captures it so powerfully. And I think it's partly because the way the war in Vietnam was fought and ended and the way the country reacted to the soldiers when they came home. But there's equal emotion on the other side, too, among the anti-war protesters that's still there.

Freyberg:
Let's talk about that. How close is it for them, the turmoil of those days?

Maraniss:
I think for a lot of people, there's one character in the book, a woman who lives in Madison, Jane Brotman, who was a freshman in 1967. For her that single day was an awakening. She said in that little clip, she came to Wisconsin believing in the government, believing in the war, really disliking the protesters, and what she saw that day, with the police marching into the Commerce Building and the kids coming out with bloodied heads, really started to force her to ask some questions about what was going on.

Freyberg:
Now, a number of the people that were involved in the documentary, in this story, gathered in Madison last week. What was that like?

Maraniss:
It was amazing and exhausting. And at times there were sparks flying, which is what I wanted. I said several times last week that healing can be a cliché. It was about just a dialogue. You know, these people all have similarities, commonalities that they might not even know about and I wanted everybody to talk about these things. And they certainly did. And it was quite a week, I'm exhausted now, but I think it was worth it.

Freyberg:
And the dialogue continues.

Maraniss:
It will for as long as we're alive.

Freyberg:
David Maraniss, thanks for your work.

Maraniss:
Thank you.

Freyberg:
"The American Experience: Two Days in October" will air Monday night at 8:00. Looking back "Two Days in October," the documentary's companion show will follow at 9:30. That is our program for tonight. Next week we visit with another Wisconsin author. This one has written a do-it-yourself book on helping the environment. I'm Frederica Freyberg. Have a great weekend.
 
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